tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post8514616802515295804..comments2024-01-24T17:15:04.916-05:00Comments on Lithyscaphe: Problem-Solving Combat: Breaking the Cage of "Roll Initiative"David Perryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07628991184561866521noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-8111132504438716242022-06-21T11:51:31.770-04:002022-06-21T11:51:31.770-04:00I go into some of that in https://lithyscaphe.blog...I go into some of that in https://lithyscaphe.blogspot.com/2020/05/problem-solving-combat-example-in.html<br /><br />To be honest, I have not experimented much more beyond that, as I have not been running games during most of the pandemic. If I start running again, I definitely want to feel out this method more.<br /><br />I like the concept of a rigidly proceduralized game style, but I don't think it has to be the only OSR-influenced GM style. This style takes another core aspect of the OSR, problem-solving, and further extends it. Even though these problems created mid-combat may be "arbitrary" relative to the players, they can still be somewhat objective challenges which follow from, and must be overcome within, the constraints of the established fiction. <br /><br />It does place a heavier burden on the mind of the GM, and I hope to provide some tools to aid this (perhaps procedures, to bring that aspect back in more).<br /><br />When it comes to death, Cunning Knave is still quite lethal with its tighter HP rules. At level 1 it comes down to judging whether a good blow against a character could mean death. If so, they die. If a bit of leeway is desired, the GM might allow a new challenge for them to recover.David Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07628991184561866521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-69414722715868536802022-06-20T14:47:49.428-04:002022-06-20T14:47:49.428-04:00Sorry for the necromancy (my specialty btw), how i...Sorry for the necromancy (my specialty btw), how is your experience with this style of combat? Anything that is weird, dont work as well as intended, etc? I see a lot of people talking about this style, but very few actual playtest experience with pros, cons and weird about it.<br /><br />What does it does well? What does it does wrong?<br /><br />OSR classical style say that the GM is a referee narrating a unforgiving world with clear procedures. You have to know and survive the procedures, you live in a "real" world with it´s own laws. These procedures try to minimize the arbitrarily of the GM role, so he can be judgement free of character death.<br /><br />Personally, i like this no-initiative style, but i'm having a hard time consolidating it with the "imparcial referee" role of the GM.Edvandohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14212310151497928026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-26294308300520233042020-06-05T18:16:30.146-04:002020-06-05T18:16:30.146-04:00Good point and interesting thought! Good point and interesting thought! David Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07628991184561866521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-90338926164298521802020-06-03T05:40:51.964-04:002020-06-03T05:40:51.964-04:00This is quite a late reply, but I wonder whether p...This is quite a late reply, but I wonder whether part of it would be to shift thinking about combat as a succeed/fail state where there ARE open-ended outcomes. Open-ended outcomes make non-combat challenges interesting. Maybe this is an argument for more GMs to consistently bring in dilemmas and alternative goals in combat: defeat the goblins AND stop the wizard from fleeing. kill the frog-demon AND don't let it eat too many hirelings. Sam Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17586453413723852458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-20229323468921718032020-05-07T12:29:19.197-04:002020-05-07T12:29:19.197-04:00A couple things for anyone keeping track here:
1. ...A couple things for anyone keeping track here:<br />1. The followup post with an example of play is up https://lithyscaphe.blogspot.com/2020/05/problem-solving-combat-example-in.html Hopefully it clarifies a few confusions that this post creates due to lack of context.<br />2. Macchiato Monsters seems to be the closest to this style of a combat system that I've seen; in particular, its Running Combat in 6 Steps section contains most of the essence of what I'm trying to elicit here. The full system still has a few too many restrictive assumptions for my taste; Cunning Knave will have more inherent freedom in its procedure.David Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07628991184561866521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-43817778300228297432020-04-29T17:34:20.420-04:002020-04-29T17:34:20.420-04:00Yeah, must remember that, too. Less looking at dic...Yeah, must remember that, too. Less looking at dice and more fiction-first. Interesting blog post in any case. Thanks! 😄Alex Schroederhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17104864340940538702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-78464726566557307702020-04-29T11:48:13.291-04:002020-04-29T11:48:13.291-04:00If the wizard is unwisely on the front lines at th...If the wizard is unwisely on the front lines at the time, sure! All of these details should be adjudicated in a fiction-first manner though. If I were that wizard, I'd be sure I was in a fairly defensible position first.<br /><br />That said, yeah - the magic system I'm using in Cunning Knave is similar to Knave in that most spells are not "attack spells".David Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07628991184561866521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-50835284942877126392020-04-29T01:56:04.689-04:002020-04-29T01:56:04.689-04:00In the system I’m trying to use I don’t use armor ...In the system I’m trying to use I don’t use armor rolls, I used opposed 2d6 rolls. If you fail your attack, essentially the counter attack succeeded. This resulted in a few other changes: armor is now extra hit points since it’s not needed for the vs roll, for example. A thing that I’ve been wondering, however, is spell casting. Cast a spell, roll vs, fail, and you take damage. In your case, it seems similar: the wizard who fails in their attack gets counter attacked and has to do the armor roll. Are you OK with that, or do you treat spells differently? Maybe not having the kind of D&D attack spells would also solve the problem, of course. Alex Schroederhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17104864340940538702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-24772152772409245632020-04-28T15:29:13.999-04:002020-04-28T15:29:13.999-04:00I can see how that assumption could be made though...I can see how that assumption could be made though, given the title of the post! Blargh. This is the kind of thing that makes me spend months on a blog post and never posting it, though, so.David Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07628991184561866521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-82430510599124004512020-04-28T15:26:08.358-04:002020-04-28T15:26:08.358-04:00Yeah this wasn't a blog post about initiative ...Yeah this wasn't a blog post about initiative rules? :shrug:<br /><br />You bring up a good point about using the term OSR though, I'm not following my own advice from https://lithyscaphe.blogspot.com/2019/12/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about.html <br /> I might go back and replace some references here with more accurate terms if I have the energy.David Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07628991184561866521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-39952364663253997412020-04-28T15:23:21.273-04:002020-04-28T15:23:21.273-04:00Of course it's how you do things. You're t...Of course it's how you do things. You're the one writing the blog post. I don't believe I missed that point.<br /><br />It's just that you use the term OSR so often in this post, I kind of thought some consideration for how many OSR games handle initiative would crop up somewhere. Anyway, clearly not the day for a debate.HDAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13506175636615989219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-27865475145917403002020-04-28T15:10:35.442-04:002020-04-28T15:10:35.442-04:00I'm super tempted to answer in a sarcastic man...I'm super tempted to answer in a sarcastic manner, which means I probably shouldn't reply at all. So I'll just say, please refer to the first paragraph of this post.David Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07628991184561866521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-14878560876551715842020-04-28T14:59:20.757-04:002020-04-28T14:59:20.757-04:00Nice, that sounds cool. So looking forward to Maze...Nice, that sounds cool. So looking forward to Maze Knights!David Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07628991184561866521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-16486106700034011342020-04-28T14:56:57.801-04:002020-04-28T14:56:57.801-04:00Nice, I'm sure I have come across that post in...Nice, I'm sure I have come across that post in the past and it influenced me as well. I'll be sure to point folks to it if they find the method in Cunning Knave too loosey goosey.David Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07628991184561866521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-25876801942019688682020-04-28T14:56:04.433-04:002020-04-28T14:56:04.433-04:00It sounds like we have different playstyle assumpt...It sounds like we have different playstyle assumptions, or I haven't sufficiently explained myself. Definitely check out the play report when it goes up.David Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07628991184561866521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-67059074591682954492020-04-28T10:19:03.867-04:002020-04-28T10:19:03.867-04:00Seems odd that you omit group initiative as an opt...Seems odd that you omit group initiative as an option, given how well-traveled that territory is. I think that the B/X initiative rules solve many of the problems you mention here.HDAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13506175636615989219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-51564491334495656042020-04-28T04:00:31.487-04:002020-04-28T04:00:31.487-04:00An inherent problem is that combat is often not op...An inherent problem is that combat is often not open-ended. This means that with fair refereeing, players will be heavily incentivised to take the action that brings them closest to the winning condition (typically enemy fleeing or dead). Combat is therefore a quantitative problem, by definition.<br /><br />Example: say that you have a 1/10 chance of killing the opponent with an attack, and a 1/3 chance of driving it off with a clever plan. If your group has 3 ppl or less, they should go for the plan, otherwise attack.<br /><br />This is also true for the rules you suggest: unless the group can think of a plan that will net more than one damage per character, within a reasonable amount of time, their best bet is still attacking. And if there is a plan, unless it is unique to that situation, the players should always default to the same plan until they can think of a more effective, and then default to that, etc. Meaning that "we do plan A" is equivalent to "we attack". Unless... you have varying initiative order, preventing the players from relying on the same plan each time.<br /><br />Personally, I do group initiative. But I'm looking forward to your play report.Olav Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14151758541523612837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-89545494281282229592020-04-28T02:05:14.733-04:002020-04-28T02:05:14.733-04:00Maze Knights was already leaning in this direction...Maze Knights was already leaning in this direction, so I'm very interested to see how your rules shape up. Maze Knights makes dungeon crawling squad based, where each player controls 2-4 characters that each have one unique ability. Going one at a time is prohibitively slow, so I'm planning on allowing the players to simply plan out synergistic combo moves and then execute them all at once, rolling checks as necessary.Ben Miltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00059505985098422978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8994971001743872624.post-25046709428121864662020-04-27T23:52:15.328-04:002020-04-27T23:52:15.328-04:00I urged the death of initiative here:
https://spe...I urged the death of initiative here:<br /><br />https://spellsandsteel.blogspot.com/2018/10/phased-real-time-combat-solution-you.html<br /><br />I've been playing with "we go" (as opposed to you go I go) aka phased real time combat for years. It is strictly superior to you go, I go, to a degree where I find it surprising traditional initiative is still so popular.<br /><br />Glad to see other folks adopting it!Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.com